| MBB/WBB The state of the Alabama basketball program

Sgt. Lincoln Osiris

Lead farmer
Crimson Tide Club
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
6,176
Reaction score
3,168
Points
0
Seriously tho...

I see this panning out. After the SECT, Avery gracefully and humbly departs back to the NBA.

We get invited to the NIT, do we turn it down?

Or do we peg Pelphrey interim HC and make the NIT a working interview? Very few have bantied about the idea of Pettway. And while he's all Bama, I doubt Byrne would give the nod to him because of his lack of experience.

Pelphrey, OTOH, played under Pitino, has HC experience, and is from the Donovan coaching tree. Grant, also from Donovan tree, didn't work out because he was just too stoic and low-energy.

Just an idea, but if the above scenario pans out, I think giving Pelphrey the interim/working interview nod during 2nd-tier postseason play is worth a shot.

I know, not the best idea, especially with barely a /500 win record. But, it keeps the kids playing in March, and maybe they make some noise.

But, we've gotta do SOMETHING. Now if Byrne already has an up-and-comer with a solid mid-major resume' interested in replacing, then all bets are off.

Aside from the Pelphrey idea most certainly NOT happening (and really I'm just spit balling with that lame idea), what we DO know is that this will be Byrne's first major hire in a major sport. I'm sure he will want this one to count, so I'm sure there will be tireless due-diligence on his part in pegging a good replacement. He wouldn't want his first major hire to end up sucking.
 
Last edited:

TUSKtimes

Riding The Wave
Crimson Tide Club
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
6,972
Reaction score
3,527
Points
0
It's late February, I'm not sure what expectations for this team have to do with it? We're 15-11 and 6-7 in the conference. By now, reality has grabbed us by the back of the neck and led us where we are going for the season. And it ain't pretty. Petty tells the world we're all going to see a different Bama team at College Station, Avery Johnson promised change after Florida let us have it. Their promises lasted for a half of basketball and a half of basketball does not a whole game make, as we all are well aware. Unfortunately, we once again hit the showers at the break.

The reality is this is a weak minded basketball team. The intensity level for our guys resembles a bunch of surfer dudes loose for the weekend. You turn the pressure up against this team and we keep folding like a cheap tent. 8 more turnovers in the second half, can't shoot, can't dribble. Back to the future.
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
3,120
Reaction score
1,482
Points
0
Take a look at the Bama roster. I didn't realize there were so many players (actually playing minutes) from Alabama. Wimp and CM made a living out of the talent from our state and taking a player or two from The Sip every now and then. It's possible that the next guy might want to expand his recruiting area if he can.




the barn


Miss Mistake

 

#80

Thread Starter
Century Club
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
2,421
Reaction score
712
Points
0
It's obvious CAJ will be back next year barring him finding a job back in the NBA. It's looking like not hiring Steve Prohm was a major mistake.
I saw CM coach and I was on campus when Wimp coached Bama fans will support winning basketball and there is no reason we can't have it. It just takes the right coach. I personally think CAJ is to soft Wimp's players feared him.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
3,120
Reaction score
1,482
Points
0
It's obvious CAJ will be back next year barring him finding a job back in the NBA. It's looking like not hiring Steve Prohm was a major mistake.
I saw CM coach and I was on campus when Wimp coached Bama fans will support winning basketball and there is no reason we can't have it. It just takes the right coach. I personally think CAJ is to soft Wimp's players feared him.
I don't believe there is ANY doubt the fans will support a good product. If Avery is fired the AD has his work cutout for him finding a HC even though he can spend 3-3.5 million for a coach.
 

TerryP

Cenosillicaphobiac
Ivory Club
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
41,714
Reaction score
9,363
Points
0
This right here!!! This is what pisses me off most about this team is their defense or lack thereof!! You can have off nights shooting the ball but defense and rebounding can win you some of those tight games. There is no damn excuse for not playing hard on defense!! Simple things such as stopping the ball, making the guy pick up his dribble and making an unwanted pass, rebounding position, boxing out, etc. these are freaking basic elementary basketball principles.
Would this team be better if they had another guard who was a good ball handler? Sure. No doubt. Should the focus on this team be largely centered on turnovers? No. It's not the reason they're dropping these bad eggs along the way. We're literally talking about a couple of turnovers, per half, and this team is right at the top when it comes to their turnover ratio. 11 per game, versus 13 per game, isn't a huge difference maker.

Again, this is what I see as fans taking a football mentality to judge a basketball program. Another, simpler way to put that leaves us with "fans watching the ball instead of the entire game itself."

The same applies to the free throw shooting. We've seen the Tide win when they're shooting their worst, lose when they're shooting their best. Like turnovers, it matters, but not to the extent some push.


I saw CM coach and I was on campus when Wimp coached Bama fans will support winning basketball and there is no reason we can't have it.
Today, versus the days when Newton and Sanderson were leading the team...how much of the game remains the same? Outside of the name of the game, there's little about today that fits in yesterday and vice versa.

But, a lot want to return to the days of Wimp? We can't. It's simply a different world.

A question I believe needs answering falls on Newton: to start. After all, he's the one (major influencer/adviser) that put Grant in charge of the program. I see fans looking at the "old guard" for answers when we're seeing a game where the "old guard" doesn't fit any longer. I do not follow the reasoning.

In a sense, it's a lot like what we're seeing when fans critique the coaching staff and team play today. I've seen it mentioned more than a few times how this team lacks post play. On the other hand, I've seen Gottfried's coaching attacked countless times because he went with a post based offense.
 

TUSKtimes

Riding The Wave
Crimson Tide Club
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
6,972
Reaction score
3,527
Points
0
Would this team be better if they had another guard who was a good ball handler? Sure. No doubt. Should the focus on this team be largely centered on turnovers? No. It's not the reason they're dropping these bad eggs along the way. We're literally talking about a couple of turnovers, per half, and this team is right at the top when it comes to their turnover ratio. 11 per game, versus 13 per game, isn't a huge difference maker.
When the pressure goes up, the decision making is particularly bad. The last 3 games have been even more profound when you add in the will to compete. This lack of will occurs on both sides of the court and can readily be seen in their willingness to get out on the 3 point shooter, setting picks, boxing out, crashing boards and a host of different but vital mundane things that winning basketball teams do in their sleep. As long as that's the subject matter and not any particular symptom of the problem it still comes down to bad prep and terrible execution.

No matter what deficiencies we seem to discuss with this team, "the want to" has taken a serious dive the last 3 games. What is new to me these last 3 games as opposed to inconsistent and bad play leading up to it, is the player's desire to "compete" for Avery.
In other words, it's getting worse.

Again, this is what I see as fans taking a football mentality to judge a basketball program. Another, simpler way to put that leaves us with "fans watching the ball instead of the entire game itself."

The same applies to the free throw shooting. We've seen the Tide win when they're shooting their worst, lose when they're shooting their best. Like turnovers, it matters, but not to the extent some push.

I'm not sure why you seem to think this is some sort of Xs and Os solution at this point? The similarities I happen to see with winning basketball and any other sport is fundamentals, toughness, belief. If you feel those qualities don't transfer from one sport to the next, and the main message is not sent from the head man, you are incorrect, again.


Today, versus the days when Newton and Sanderson were leading the team...how much of the game remains the same? Outside of the name of the game, there's little about today that fits in yesterday and vice versa.

But, a lot want to return to the days of Wimp? We can't. It's simply a different world.

A question I believe needs answering falls on Newton: to start. After all, he's the one (major influencer/adviser) that put Grant in charge of the program. I see fans looking at the "old guard" for answers when we're seeing a game where the "old guard" doesn't fit any longer. I do not follow the reasoning.
I haven't kept up with everyone's comments on the good ole days of Bama basketball. But what I have noticed is that some Bama fans on here don't necessarily believe our University is set up for basketball success and there isn't enough investment and concern to carry out what should be a mandate. Wimp and CM certainly show that it can be done. Wimp had his problems along the way and rubbed some star players, like Ennis Whately among others, the wrong way, which, with his style was almost impossible to not do otherwise.

Hobbs, Gottfried, Grant, Johnson are no more a hurdle to get over in basketball than Debose, Price, Francione, Shula in football. You keep trying until you find what you are looking for. To suggest that there's not another coach out there that can have a positive effect on the program as a CM Newton or a Billy Donovan is nonsense.
 

mando

Sideline Club
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Messages
749
Reaction score
370
Points
0
@TerryP I think the reference (at least for me) to CM and Wimp are related to my recollection of the teams results.

As for turnovers and free throws it seems to happen in bursts at the worse possible time.

Both of these are my perceptions. I did not go back and look at CM/Wimps records and I have not analyzed what is really happening during crunch time of games with respect to turnovers and free throws. Probably should do that to see if my perception matches reality. Not sure it matters because when that narrative is out there it is hard to change it.
 

TerryP

Cenosillicaphobiac
Ivory Club
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
41,714
Reaction score
9,363
Points
0
@mando As much as I hate the comparisons between the two, you've hit on a strong point:
Not sure it matters because when that narrative is out there it is hard to change it.
It's akin to seeing a missed field goal and 95%+ of the fan base automatically blames the kicker when the hold was at 45° with the laces in.
 

mando

Sideline Club
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Messages
749
Reaction score
370
Points
0
@mando As much as I hate the comparisons between the two, you've hit on a strong point:


It's akin to seeing a missed field goal and 95%+ of the fan base automatically blames the kicker when the hold was at 45° with the laces in.
Yep if the kicker has struggled and then misses due to a bad snap or hold they will not be given the benefit of the doubt and it is just another strike against them.

I used to really enjoy following Bama basketball especially the Wimp days. I recall some of those Bama vs Arkansas games as classics. Also come SEC tournament time Bama took it up a notch. Wimp just had some special sauce that time of year.

Also, the talent on the court when Bama vs Arkansas played was excellent. Many players from both teams played in the NBA. I just do not see this kind of talent on the court at Bama. Bama basketball has been mediocre for a long time. Would be nice to see that corrected. Was hopeful CAJ would fix that with his ties to the NBA. I think he has some but not enough.
 

footballer

Sideline Club
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
773
Reaction score
345
Points
0
Yep if the kicker has struggled and then misses due to a bad snap or hold they will not be given the benefit of the doubt and it is just another strike against them.

I used to really enjoy following Bama basketball especially the Wimp days. I recall some of those Bama vs Arkansas games as classics. Also come SEC tournament time Bama took it up a notch. Wimp just had some special sauce that time of year.

Also, the talent on the court when Bama vs Arkansas played was excellent. Many players from both teams played in the NBA. I just do not see this kind of talent on the court at Bama. Bama basketball has been mediocre for a long time. Would be nice to see that corrected. Was hopeful CAJ would fix that with his ties to the NBA. I think he has some but not enough.
" Talented players" is a relative description. CAJ, as well as coaches of all other teams, attract the players they think have the kind of potential; bball intelligence, team oriented, athletic and coachable prospects they can, to build a team with. Once on campus, it is up to the head coach and staff to teach and mold each player, developing the talent of each player. Some coaches have IT, some don't. In my view, so far , CAJ has not shown the ability to develop his player's talent, he is trying to learn college coaching on the fly. If AD, faculty and fans give him enough time, maybe he himself will develop into a better teacher of the college game. Apples and oranges but do you remember what CBP said about CPBB who definitely had IT? He could take hisen and beat yourn and take yourn and beat hisen. Probably the highest praise Bear ever received from another coach.
 

TerryP

Cenosillicaphobiac
Ivory Club
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
41,714
Reaction score
9,363
Points
0
I used to really enjoy following Bama basketball especially the Wimp days. I recall some of those Bama vs Arkansas games as classics. Also come SEC tournament time Bama took it up a notch. Wimp just had some special sauce that time of year.
Another one of the reasons I feel comparisons of Wimp and CM's days to what we're seeing today is the amount of talent found close to home versus nationwide. In Grant's second, maybe third, season here I did a fairly in-depth look at where the talent was coming from in D1 play. To say the the least the state, and southeast generally, wasn't supplying a lot at that time. There's more to be found now than there was five years ago but it's still a situation if Bama wants to compete, talent wise, with the major programs around the nation it has to have that type of approach with basketball.

CAJ, as well as coaches of all other teams, attract the players they think have the kind of potential; bball intelligence, team oriented, athletic and coachable prospects they can, to build a team with. Once on campus, it is up to the head coach and staff to teach and mold each player, developing the talent of each player. Some coaches have IT, some don't. In my view, so far ,
In an ideal world, right? Ideal, versus reality.

I see those traits you've mentioned as requiring one thing: a solid fundamental basketball base to build upon. That's disconnect I see...there just aren't that many coming out of the AAU circuit with whom you can find those attributes. I still don't like the talent pool that feeds D1 basketball coming from the AAU circuits. But, in today's age, where else does a college coach go?
 

TerryP

Cenosillicaphobiac
Ivory Club
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
41,714
Reaction score
9,363
Points
0
Bama vs Arkansas
I like that you've brought up Arkansas because it's a fitting case study while discussing the Tide.

Bama fans: We want to return to the days of Wimp and CM.
Arkansas fans: We want to return to the days of Richardson.

Arkansas went as far as hiring a coach that played under the tutelage of Richardson. Ironically, a guy that a lot of Bama fans pointed to before Grant and some before Johnson. Yet, his "rebuild" at Arkansas saw the 'Backs getting to the dance in his fourth season--a run sparked by their performance in the SEC tournament. Arkansas is looking at closing their seventh season under Anderson with three NCAA appearances under his belt—none past the second round.

Can they return to "40 minutes of Hell?" By all appearances, no. They can not. But it's still on the forefront of their minds.

(Another ironic note is seeing some suggest Avery should be let go and Pelphrey given the "interim tag" going forward. He was roughly 25-36 in his time in Fayetteville with a second round appearance in his first season and nothing since then.)
 

footballer

Sideline Club
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
773
Reaction score
345
Points
0
Another one of the reasons I feel comparisons of Wimp and CM's days to what we're seeing today is the amount of talent found close to home versus nationwide. In Grant's second, maybe third, season here I did a fairly in-depth look at where the talent was coming from in D1 play. To say the the least the state, and southeast generally, wasn't supplying a lot at that time. There's more to be found now than there was five years ago but it's still a situation if Bama wants to compete, talent wise, with the major programs around the nation it has to have that type of approach with basketball.


In an ideal world, right? Ideal, versus reality.

I see those traits you've mentioned as requiring one thing: a solid fundamental basketball base to build upon. That's disconnect I see...there just aren't that many coming out of the AAU circuit with whom you can find those attributes. I still don't like the talent pool that feeds D1 basketball coming from the AAU circuits. But, in today's age, where else does a college coach go?
Terry, I was only suggesting that CAJ as well as other coaches, recruit the high school players they feel have the most potential with the characteristics or attributes they are most interested in their players having. Whether they be athletic, skilled, mentally tough or whatever. As far as a fundamental base to build on, CAG ran a pretty good and sound defensive plan that was in place when CAJ took over. Though Grant's offensive plan was more or less like watching a tug boat and barge navigate the Black Warrior as others have stated. CAJ has implemented some pretty good defensive game plans and with a little luck here and there,won some games that
maybe they should not have won on paper. Cudos for those games. But more often than not, I see a NBA style of " not much" defense, a wave as the offender blows by, or getting lost and not covering the best or hot shooters, or defenders switching off and the center be guarding the guard at the top of the key, which does not make very much sense to me. Look, I know that no player will never play perfectly, no team will ever play perfectly and no coach will ever formulate the perfect game plan. But there have been way too many mental breakdowns in every game that I have watched with CAJ coaching his teams over the last four years.
 

TerryP

Cenosillicaphobiac
Ivory Club
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
41,714
Reaction score
9,363
Points
0
@footballer I believe I understand/understood what you were saying. I see the lack of these skills coming from the way they were coached early on from Jr. High to Sr. High and thereafter. There are very few well developed high school seniors today versus what we were seeing back in the 80's and earlier. It's my opinion is due to a few things like more emphasis on the three than the mid range jumper. Statistics show more and more teams going the route of the three ball.

With Grant, he inherited a team his first season that was average on defense. Their efficiency ratings were somewhere in the 90's following the 2009 season. By 2011 they were a top ten team in defense, in 2013 in the high 30's, and in 2015 Bama is back in the 90's.

With Johnson I'm seeing the route. He had the Tide in the 50's his first season ('16) which was a dramatic difference from Grant's last season. Last season it was a top 20 defensive squad. Now, in '19, Bama is back in the 80's.

Yes, they were winning games early on due to the defense. Now, with what I'm seeing as a distinct effort to increase their efficiency on offense they've dropped the ball on the other end of the court. We've seen the offensive improve each season. And the defense decline this past season.

I've seen the breakdowns in areas you've mentioned here. I attribute it to a lack of focus, or intensity if you will. And, it's my opinion the best way for a basketball team to maintain intensity starts on the defensive side of the ball.

Bama played 30 minutes of some really good ball yesterday. A lot of that came from the leadership, and coincidentally defense, from guys like Hall. Who, ironically, was recruited by Grant for his post play on offense.
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
3,120
Reaction score
1,482
Points
0
Perhaps Bama depends on recruits from the state of Alabama way too much then again maybe that is the only players they can get to sign. Bama has some athletes playing for us but I don't believe that have a high BB IQ and the level of coaching they received in high school could be a larger problem that we acknowledge. I assume free throw shooting percentage in high school pretty much followed each player to college?
 

bama alum

Verified Member
Crimson Tide Club
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
7,639
Reaction score
2,512
Points
0
Perhaps Bama depends on recruits from the state of Alabama way too much then again maybe that is the only players they can get to sign. Bama has some athletes playing for us but I don't believe that have a high BB IQ and the level of coaching they received in high school could be a larger problem that we acknowledge. I assume free throw shooting percentage in high school pretty much followed each player to college?
Hopefully, CAJ can get Watford to sign. To me, he's the biggest in-state must since Austin Wiley, although AW was always headed to cowtown.
 

footballer

Sideline Club
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
773
Reaction score
345
Points
0
With this team, we see a lot of games, they begin to show signs of let down toward the end of first halves and towards the end of the games. Could this be because they are not very well conditioned and are wearing down and getting tired? Some have suggested they become lazy, which I have a hard time believing. CAJ play too many players? Does he promise players pt if they come in and work hard? Every player probably works hard in practice, but does that mean they are ready to play smart winning ball each and every minute they are one the court? I keep referring to Wimp, but he used to say if he could identify 7 or 8 players that he felt would give every effort to play winning bball, he felt he had a pretty good team. I think he probably spent more time teaching those 7 or 8 players than the others. Also, Wimp's teams were probably the most well conditioned teams in all of college bball. I've also heard him say many times, you have to keep the other team from scoring more points than you can.
 

TerryP

Cenosillicaphobiac
Ivory Club
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
41,714
Reaction score
9,363
Points
0
With this team, we see a lot of games, they begin to show signs of let down toward the end of first halves and towards the end of the games. Could this be because they are not very well conditioned and are wearing down and getting tired?
Here's another example where my opinion differs from others.

There's a run made by just about every team in every game. A lot of the times we'll see two or three runs—but one is coming; no doubt.

I noticed one Bama 'centric' article titled "Alabama Basketball nearly blows it against Vanderbilt ." Take that, and compare it with "Alabama Basketball Holds Off Vanderbilt Rally in 68-61 Win." Same game, but the title reads so differently.

Bama had their rally against Florida and pulled within six as I recall. Mack missed two shots and their run was over. Teams Bama has faced where they rallied, and won, could have been prevented with defense. However, in both cases I think it also falls down to leadership and maturity.

We've discussed how Johnson relates to college kids since he's been here. Developing maturity, in a college aged player, isn't an easy task. The same can be said for leadership.

These breakdowns, or collapses if you will, seem to fall into both categories. We see a team make a run and we don't see Bama with the maturity and leadership to withstand the onslaught. That comes with time: something a lot don't seem to be willing to give Avery the opportunity to develop.

The runs of opponents? We're going to see that even if Bama had a guy like Coach K on the bench.
 

Top Bottom