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mando

Sideline Club
And you could find the same areas of weakness in Saban's defenses when he was at LSU and going back to this days at Michigan State.
Interesting to me is what I considered Bama's best defense eventually gave out to the fast pace offense of Clemson in the NC game a few years back. They were lights out in that game in the first half but eventually they wore down. I assume based on your statement you believe the issue is a schematic/system issue and the technique Saba teaches?

My biggest concern is still not controlling the line of scrimmage and shutting the run down. Getting gashed in the middle of the line of scrimmage used to not happen. Teams just gave up trying to run an just threw the ball.

For full transparency I did not get to watch the first half was only listening but got the jest of what was happening. 2nd half was obviously much better until it mattered.

Bama scoring 38 points should always be enough against anyone.
 

ElephantStomp

Bama Club
Interesting to me is what I considered Bama's best defense eventually gave out to the fast pace offense of Clemson in the NC game a few years back. They were lights out in that game in the first half but eventually they wore down. I assume based on your statement you believe the issue is a schematic/system issue and the technique Saba teaches?

My biggest concern is still not controlling the line of scrimmage and shutting the run down. Getting gashed in the middle of the line of scrimmage used to not happen. Teams just gave up trying to run an just threw the ball.

For full transparency I did not get to watch the first half was only listening but got the jest of what was happening. 2nd half was obviously much better until it mattered.

Bama scoring 38 points should always be enough against anyone.
I believe we need a defensive revamp like what we got on offense when Saban decided to bring in Kiffin.

Everybody points to how great our defenses were with Kirbs and Pruitt, but offenses were different and every time we played a team with spread/tempo we got gashed
 

TerryP

Ivory Club
With enough research you could rationalize anything, but it's safe to say we are vulnerable in the middle and just aren't our typical selves on defense during Saban's tenure.
Rationalize is a telling word.

As you'll recall a few seasons ago I said I felt there needed to be a schematic change on defense in the same light as we saw the offense move along. That was in reference to those wanting that 16pt DPA avg, etc.

"It's safe to say" the areas of weakness which have been attributed to Golding lie deeper, it's a schematic opening. It's perplexing how a lot seem to have forgotten "3rd and Kirby."

"It's safe to say" what I've said because "it is what it is." You can trace this back to his days before Alabama.

It's not difficult to admit "that's going to be open."
 

64Tide

Registered
Until breeding, strength/conditioning and development produces the 6’ 4” 250 lb ILB that can cover slot guys and backs out the backfield, we will continue to have this problem. It is now reliant on technique/practice habits and as CNS says, what are you going to do today to make yourself better than yesterday? A lot of our problems are caused by guys having to think too much vs just playing football, paralysis by analysis.
 

BamaFan334

Scholarship Club
Rationalize is a telling word.

As you'll recall a few seasons ago I said I felt there needed to be a schematic change on defense in the same light as we saw the offense move along. That was in reference to those wanting that 16pt DPA avg, etc.

"It's safe to say" the areas of weakness which have been attributed to Golding lie deeper, it's a schematic opening. It's perplexing how a lot seem to have forgotten "3rd and Kirby."

"It's safe to say" what I've said because "it is what it is." You can trace this back to his days before Alabama.

It's not difficult to admit "that's going to be open."

So why aren't other teams having this same issue? We aren't gashing teams over the middle. You're saying there has been a hole in the middle and susceptibility at Alabama since before Saban? Offenses are definitely different, but our current product is garbage. Our talent has masked inefficiencies, but Kirby seems to be doing ok now. His issues have been how he handles his offense, but his defense is what bails him out more times than not. Maybe a revamping needs to happen, I'll side with you there because I admittingly am not on your level of knowledge there

People say Saban is this wizard in the secondary, but outside of Surtain, Milliner, Ha Ha, and maybe Kirkpatrick our defensive backfield leaks big time. Minkah, Marlon, Eddie, and a bunch of other used to get torched every week.
 

mando

Sideline Club
So why aren't other teams having this same issue? We aren't gashing teams over the middle. You're saying there has been a hole in the middle and susceptibility at Alabama since before Saban? Offenses are definitely different, but our current product is garbage. Our talent has masked inefficiencies, but Kirby seems to be doing ok now. His issues have been how he handles his offense, but his defense is what bails him out more times than not. Maybe a revamping needs to happen, I'll side with you there because I admittingly am not on your level of knowledge there

People say Saban is this wizard in the secondary, but outside of Surtain, Milliner, Ha Ha, and maybe Kirkpatrick our defensive backfield leaks big time. Minkah, Marlon, Eddie, and a bunch of other used to get torched every week.
Do agree with some of this sentiment but I have never woke up and said man I wish we were Georgia EVER.... I know that is not what you actually said but felt like I needed to point that out. To me Bama is being measured against Bama and on that standard the D has been lacking for a few years. Even during the Kirby/Pruitt days if anyone was going to have success it was going to be in the air. We would see D backs get beat at times. This happens because the other guys have great players also and coaches who look for matchup issues. Playing DB is a hard job and asking a LB to stop the run and cover a RB is even harder.

My issue has been and continues to be that Bama is not completely shutting down the run against every team. By this I mean less than 100 per game and one of the top rated defenses in the nation against the run and total D (<300). People tell me I am unrealistic in today's game and maybe I am but to me that is the Bama standard. I think TerryP has another stat he prefers related to defensive efficiency and/or points per possession. Can't recall which one. Maybe that is a better measure but I still go to rushing yards, total yards and points per game to measure how well the D is doing in my mind. On those stats we are not measuring up.
 

BamaFan334

Scholarship Club
Do agree with some of this sentiment but I have never woke up and said man I wish we were Georgia EVER.... I know that is not what you actually said but felt like I needed to point that out. To me Bama is being measured against Bama and on that standard the D has been lacking for a few years. Even during the Kirby/Pruitt days if anyone was going to have success it was going to be in the air. We would see D backs get beat at times. This happens because the other guys have great players also and coaches who look for matchup issues. Playing DB is a hard job and asking a LB to stop the run and cover a RB is even harder.

My issue has been and continues to be that Bama is not completely shutting down the run against every team. By this I mean less than 100 per game and one of the top rated defenses in the nation against the run and total D (<300). People tell me I am unrealistic in today's game and maybe I am but to me that is the Bama standard. I think TerryP has another stat he prefers related to defensive efficiency and/or points per possession. Can't recall which one. Maybe that is a better measure but I still go to rushing yards, total yards and points per game to measure how well the D is doing in my mind. On those stats we are not measuring up.

Well, you're right, I'm not comparing us to Georgia and I would never want to be them. They are not the standard, we are in my mind. I just use them because they are in our same conference and seem to be doing what our team SHOULD be doing. They play against the same offenses we do, so I don't really buy into that narrative either. Coach Saban has said something along those lines of not expecting lower scoring games yadda yadda, but I felt like that was a cop out excuse. Wisconsin, Georgia, Iowa, and Cincinnati are doing just fine defensively this season.

You make a good point in that we will always come across star players that will get their yards and stats against us. That I have zero issue with. The issue I have is a guy that couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat absolutely torching us in a game we had no reason to lose. We lose to Florida or Ole Miss, I get it. But losing to a backup quarterback that has sucked in his two previous SEC games is unacceptable. Below are his stats before us, against us, and totals after us. That is unacceptable by any measure and no one should be happy about that product. I go back to Golding saying he "had to simplify" his defense. If you have to simplify it that damn much with the time and effort these guys put in, it's probably not effective or worth rolling out anyways. We have world class athletes with elite skills on our team that spend 90% of their time in this program watching film, training, and practicing, yet he has to simplify and still can't get it right? Sure, players have mishaps and blow coverages, but you can't tell me we blew coverage for four quarters against the quarterback detailed below with our elite talent. It doesn't add up to me.

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21/31 68% - 285 Yards 3/1 TD/INT

So before he played us he was 69/128 54% - 744 yards with 5/4 TD/INT
 

NickelDoubleDog

Sideline Club
The D vs Ole Miss had to be simplified to be able to go against their fast paced and complex scheme. There weren't a bunch of subs play to play, and they didn't have 10 checks for each D call. They just played the initial call.

The result was great, and the lowest output OM has ever had under Kiffin.

This week, back to the 10 checks before each offensive play, the D players are all confused, they play slow. Zone D, they cover grass instead of finding a receiver to match up with. In man, they bust coverage. They don't fire off the ball.

The result is an atrocious D performance vs. an OL that was playing freshmen, and a backup QB who has been terrible this year.
 

TerryP

Ivory Club
So why aren't other teams having this same issue?
Name one team that's stopped the slant.
You're saying there has been a hole in the middle and susceptibility at Alabama since before Saban?
I'm saying the same thing I've been saying for several years: this defense has always been susceptible over the middle. The change we've seen over the last ten years in offenses magnifies that area. (It's no different that Spurrier's wide receivers sitting in the soft part of the zone 20 years ago against traditional 4-3's.)
 

BamaFan334

Scholarship Club
Name one team that's stopped the slant.

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying for several years: this defense has always been susceptible over the middle. The change we've seen over the last ten years in offenses magnifies that area. (It's no different that Spurrier's wide receivers sitting in the soft part of the zone 20 years ago against traditional 4-3's.)

How about I name teams that aren't letting inferior quarterbacks and green offensive lines score over 40 points on them? I couldn't give a damn about someone hitting a slant. We can't make every single play, and I understand that. It's the freaking seam routes and posts down the field that kill us. 3rd and 15's, 3 and 17's, and even 3rd and 9's are a nightmare for us. I have discussed with @NickelDoubleDog that I trust a third and short a hell of a lot more than I trust a third and long with our defense. What is that saying???

As far as us being gutted over the middle, why even run a defense with so many defensive backs if they aren't covering every part of the field? It ain't working and that is what a Defensive Coordinator should be doing. I get it, people around the world look at Coach Saban as a God like figure. It kind of sickens me that people look at him like that because he is a normal person like each and every one of us. Bet anyone a gazillion dollars he wishes he was treated like one too. But if I'm Pete Golding, I would have the balls to get with my boss and let him know what isn't working and have the proof to show why, especially if my job was on the line and I was getting drug through the mud. Saban isn't always right is why I went through those last few sentences, and he is willing to make a transformation if he can be given evidence it would help. I feel Golding is being propped up big time and just happy to be there rather than developing his skillset and the players he coaches. In my mind Saban has kept him in hopes of building some kind of continuity due to departures from the staff, but it doesn't appear it's working and I find it of no coincidence he has never been mentioned for another position like so many others around him and before him. With all of that being said, if my dang job was on the line you can bet your butt I'm having talks with my boss about what needs to happen whether it's welcomed or not. I can go to sleep at night knowing I tried making a difference and expressed myself, but what I couldn't do is sleep knowing I kept my mouth shut and let everyone drill me from all sides without saying a word.
 

mando

Sideline Club
I go back to Golding saying he "had to simplify" his defense
Something consider, experience level of players plays a part. Do you think the offense/defensive units have a broader playbook as juniors and seniors than freshmen and sophomore? If agreed which is what I believe then the coordinator has more options to combat what the other team is doing. I felt this D would be more mature and therefore perform ahead of the offense. For the most part that has not been the case. That is my biggest complaint the D should be the strength of the team.
what I couldn't do is sleep knowing I kept my mouth shut
How do you know he is doing this? Maybe PG is telling Saban what he sees as the issues. Saban does not strike me as someone that wants yes men around.
 

BamaFan334

Scholarship Club
Something consider, experience level of players plays a part. Do you think the offense/defensive units have a broader playbook as juniors and seniors than freshmen and sophomore? If agreed which is what I believe then the coordinator has more options to combat what the other team is doing. I felt this D would be more mature and therefore perform ahead of the offense. For the most part that has not been the case. That is my biggest complaint the D should be the strength of the team.

How do you know he is doing this? Maybe PG is telling Saban what he sees as the issues. Saban does not strike me as someone that wants yes men around.

I imagine at this juncture in college sports that Freshmen, Sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors are learning the same plays all around. NOW, a Mac Jones probably had different play calls than when Bryce came in last year. Bryce probably has different play calls than Tyson or Milroe would get this year. BUT, they all know the plays in their playbooks. These defensive players all have multiple years in the system and within those media rooms watching tape and a ton of practices, outside of To'oto'o who transferred in late. What strikes me as strange are the comments from everyone and their momma within the program about how quickly To'oto'o learned the defense, was calling plays, making changes, and was the nucleus of the defense, and yet now people are saying he doesn't know what he is doing yadda yadda. So which is it? It all comes back to two people, Golding and Saban.

As far as letting his voice be known, Golding could be doing that. I can't see that happening as I don't see any change in what we're seeing on the field, so it lets me know either Saban is ignoring him or he is just not saying anything to Saban. Either way, what we're doing is not working. Saban definitely doesn't come across as a "yes coach" kind of guy and that being acceptable, but it really has me wondering here. Why have others seen their star shine, but Golding not? I see the same thing with Tosh. Those are the only two guys (high profile guys) I recall that have not grown into bigger roles from the Saban tree.
 

TerryP

Ivory Club
How about I name teams that aren't letting inferior quarterbacks and green offensive lines score over 40 points on them? I couldn't give a damn about someone hitting a slant.
Goal posts moving here...you asked about other teams and with my response proceed to go on the same spiel? I'm not discounting your questions. I am discounting your directed blame considering how long we've seen these very things.

Follow along for a second. If we saw the defense getting more pressure from the middle linebackers we wouldn't be talking about receptions over the middle as much as we are. Where's that pressure gone? We're seeing blitz packages met where the defensive linemen aren't maintaining their gap control. Where's the finger pointing towards Roach? Is that coaching or is that execution.
 

BamaFan334

Scholarship Club
Goal posts moving here...you asked about other teams and with my response proceed to go on the same spiel? I'm not discounting your questions. I am discounting your directed blame considering how long we've seen these very things.

Follow along for a second. If we saw the defense getting more pressure from the middle linebackers we wouldn't be talking about receptions over the middle as much as we are. Where's that pressure gone? We're seeing blitz packages met where the defensive linemen aren't maintaining their gap control. Where's the finger pointing towards Roach? Is that coaching or is that execution.

So you're saying we haven't been getting pressure since before Saban either if you're saying the middle has always been an issue. I'm not moving the goal post by asking how and what other teams are surviving this issue. Our secondary has always been a bend, but don't break it seems, but way more breaking than bending lately.
 

NickelDoubleDog

Sideline Club
Goal posts moving here...you asked about other teams and with my response proceed to go on the same spiel? I'm not discounting your questions. I am discounting your directed blame considering how long we've seen these very things.

Follow along for a second. If we saw the defense getting more pressure from the middle linebackers we wouldn't be talking about receptions over the middle as much as we are. Where's that pressure gone? We're seeing blitz packages met where the defensive linemen aren't maintaining their gap control. Where's the finger pointing towards Roach? Is that coaching or is that execution.

Lack of pressure all goes back to the DC to me. Golding kept the double A gap blitz from Ole Miss and that's all he had for A&M. A&M was ready for it and made plays against that specific pressure. There were no new pressures, nothing successful. Against Freshmen OL.

Roach may not be doing a great job, but in my opinion, every D position coach is limited by the D coordinator and his limitations.
 

NickelDoubleDog

Sideline Club
Read that one more time...the word "IF" plays a large role in that scenario. A mere example.

The whole damn staff was outcoached this past weekend but it's a "let's jump on Golding again." A tiresome refrain.

Apologize if it's tiring. I am not a coach, but know a good amount about schemes in football from my past experiences. Golding's schemes and how he implements them is not good. They only look like a top D when they take out all the checks for the D presnap. Otherwise it's the same half to entirely confused D out there week after week.

This was said to be the best Bama D since 2016, and they couldn't get any pressure on a backup A&M QB that was playing freshmen OL.
 

BamaFan334

Scholarship Club
Read that one more time...the word "IF" plays a large role in that scenario. A mere example.

The whole damn staff was outcoached this past weekend but it's a "let's jump on Golding again." A tiresome refrain.

Sure appears the defense is outcoached a lot to act like it was just this last game. When do the excuses stop?

Let's face it, Ole Miss lost some dynamic players from last season and has simply outclassed a weak schedule until they played us. They did not have the talent this season to outplay us like last year, despite the narrative thrown around and even the concern from us fans. Miami sucks, Mercer is Mercer and made us look flat. Florida was blitzed by us in the first quarter only, and then basically did what they wanted on both sides of the ball. We play a somewhat talented Texas A&M team, with a not so great quarterback and get beat. We were outcoached, yes, but when does the realization that Golding isn't up to par with the standard kick in and the excuses stop? He's doing less with more than anyone in the country, and that's a fact. How on Earth could you mess up Amazon or Apple at this juncture? That's how I compare this.
 
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