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Thread: Gun Control (why own a gun?)

  1. #11
    STAFF HEISMAN PhillyGirl's Avatar
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    I agree that violence is (largely) driven by problems not relating to firearms. I think we do have a serious gun violence problem in this country, but literally NO ONE (Republican, Democrat, or in between) is saying we need to ban all guns. I don't know where this idea keeps coming from. Honestly, the issue of any gun control at all has barely been touched upon in the wake of the Newtown shootings. Frankly I think we have some things that are a little more important than gun rights that we need to be worrying about, but I digress lol.

    And when I say 'gun problem', I mean the fact that 1. so many are drawn to violence in the first place, 2. there are so many illegal guns out there, and 3. there are so many folks out there with violent tendencies NOT receiving help. They are using guns as a means to carry out their ends; mass murder and destruction. If it wasn't guns, I think it would be something else. While guns are more 'destructive' than bombs, knives, etc (in terms of number of injured or killed by each per year in our country), there is a serious problem in this country if we have so many folks running around shooting each other.

    I think what we need to do is take a serious look at the gun crime rates here, and the means by which these crimes occurred (illegal or legal weapon? what type of weapon? what type of assailant? any mental health issues? etc). It's well known that our healthcare system sucks (especially on a world scale), and along with it, many mental health support systems we have are largely ineffective. Looking at the folks committing these crimes, most had some sort of mental issue, and most did not receive adequate (if any) help or support with their issues. Perhaps if we addressed our lacking mental health care support systems instead of using guns at large as a victim in this ..

    Until we address the root causes of gun violence in the first place, only then will it be truly acceptable to address guns as a means/issue. I guess I look at it as more of a violence issue than a gun one.

    Also one thing the media is sort of ignoring in the wake of all this discussion is how the shooter's mother acted irresponsibly. She was well-aware of her son's issues (what they were exactly, no one seems to be really sure, but from what we know thus far, he seems like a kid who's parent should not have had guns anywhere near him) and she yet still kept guns readily available and accessible in the home, and even took her son out shooting regularly. What kind of responsible gun owner is that? Obviously, the vast majority of legal gun owners ARE responsible folks; I know several. But for those few who are not, what are we supposed to do? Obviously it is the owner's responsibility to act according to law and to respect the gun(s) .. but not all of them DO. I wonder if some sort of mandatory classes, training sessions, etc would help with this? At least, for legally acquired guns .. I dunno. I don't know much about the current process of legally acquiring a gun.

    It's a really messy issue. I am not even sure where I stand on the gun issue itself. I am from a city with a TON of gun violence every year (and Philly isn't even that bad, considering; check out our neighbor Camden, the murder capital of the United States, and THEIR gun violence rates) and there still aren't any real measures to address it .. Many schools in both cities maintain armed guards/cops, but it hasn't stopped any gun violence rates; even in the elementary schools. It didn't help at Columbine, Ft. Hood, or VA Tech, either. What happened at Newtown and all of those places (especially the Sikh temple; for some reason I just find the idea of a massacre in a religious temple as being the most frightening) is terrible but it goes on every single day in this country. Practically every night I hear reports of gun-related murders in my cities, both the one I lived in and the one I currently go to school in .. Sigh.

    Lastly, I think the conservatives bitching about the liberals coming to steal their guns away, and the liberals bitching about the conservatives trying to force guns upon them are both stupid and misguided. And blaming Obama/Bush/whoever the President is, or guns, or whoever/whatever isn't gonna solve anything. We have to stop blaming the other side; it's only adding to the polarization of our country and the inability of our elected officials to ever agree or reach compromises on anything. Not to be all cliche, but we have GOT to work together on this issue, have an open dialogue from all sides, and come to some sort of solution that protects our people. Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about: keeping America safe.

    Thanks to mrchase!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XXL TideFan View Post
    Because they don't have the right to ban a damn thing. Technically if you build your own fully automatic machine gun and never cross state lines, it is legal. The reality is the government costumed thugs will throw you in prison because people of your ilk are content to let them dictate how you live your life.

    I am done. Just remember, criminals don't turn in their guns. Isn't that the goal of it? Cut down on crime. Can you even acknowledge the idiocy of that line of thinking? These massacres have occurred in GUN FREE ZONES as defined by law.
    See its literally impossible to talk to people like you, because you're of those that think nothing should be illegal, except for things you personally dont like. Wonder if you feel the same about the "drug war" (which is about as ineffective as the war of terror)... so you're perfectly fine with someone owning a Machine Gun or a gotd@mn bazooka? That is asinine and just absolutely ridiculous.

    And the point of those laws if one of these nutbars gets caught with an illegal weapon, they can be arrested and charged with a federal crime possibly averting one of these massacres from ever happening. Oh really all these massacres occurred there? So Columbine and Virginia Tech didn't have ARMED guards at the schools? you might want to do a little research before making claims like that... I'm gonna take a wild guess and you're one of the ones that suggest teachers should have guns at school, I truly hope not...

    I've never once been in favor of banning guns (and neither is anyone else thats even talked about any laws) and I own a gun, but there SHOULD be regulations on certain things (like not owning a freaking machine gun, not being able to buy a damn silencer or 30 round clip, and the massively retarded gun show law). People like you are the ones that scream about the constitution and taking away our "freedoms" (yes because not being able to buy a gun without a background check is taking away a freedom, good lord) yet will STAUNCHLY ignore the constitution when comes to things like "all are created equal", separation of church and state, abortion, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0LDSCH00L View Post
    I believe violence in America is driven by problems not even relating to firearms. Every movie, television show, and video game is filled with violence, many of the mass murders are committed by young people that have been brought up playing violent video game and watching one violent movie after another. Add to that all the drugs, hate crimes, (black, hispanic and white) and you have a perfect formula for violence.

    Controlling guns will only control guns of the law biding citizens because they are the only ones that would cooperate. Criminals DO NOT register their weapons and would not cooperate with authorities.

    If you think the government can confiscate guns and keep them out of the hands of violent people consider the fact that they can't even control drugs coming across our borders by the ton. The same drug "Mules" will be hauling in assault rifles by the ton if gun control is implemented by the Obama administration.

    It is already a fact that most street gangs are better armed than the police that stand between them and us!

    http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/...ml?CMP=OTC-RSS

    I am inclined to agree with Switzerland___ Issue every law biding citizen a weapon and train them how to use it properly and watch crime drop to 0%!
    So you're answer is forget guns, we dont need to worry about that... lets censor music, movies, and video games. My god say that out loud and tell me you dont think its INSANE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdman37 View Post
    Assault Weapon ban means getting rid of large clips, pistol grips, folding stocks, and flash/sound suppressors... Why do you hate that?
    Why do I hate the term, probably because any gun can be used to assault someone. Why should a few simple features determine if the weapon is an "assault weapon". I mean in theory, any weapon can be used as an assault weapon - the definition itself was too complicated and was easy to use the definitions as a way of evading the law.

    I think that too many people associate the AR-15's in question with being automatic, when in fact they are semi-automatic, the few people I've asked had no idea that the AR-15's in question were semi-automatic weapons - they assumed that they were automatic. Why should a semi-automatic rifle not be allowed? How is it more dangerous than a guy with a couple of semi-automatic pistols and a handful of smaller capacity magazines.



    What I failed to say earlier, there are more important things our government should be working on right now, our debt situation, creating more jobs, fixing our corporate tax rate to bring business back to America just to name a few. If we really want to reduce unnecessary deaths, there are other causes that occur more frequently than the shootings...accidental drownings, prescription pain medicine abuse (my family has been impacted by this, as I'm sure many posting here have been impacted in one way or another), repeat offenders of DUI/DWI's, I could keep going but I think you get the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdman37 View Post
    See its literally impossible to talk to people like you, because you're of those that think nothing should be illegal, except for things you personally dont like. Wonder if you feel the same about the "drug war" (which is about as ineffective as the war of terror)... so you're perfectly fine with someone owning a Machine Gun or a gotd@mn bazooka? That is asinine and just absolutely ridiculous.

    And the point of those laws if one of these nutbars gets caught with an illegal weapon, they can be arrested and charged with a federal crime possibly averting one of these massacres from ever happening. Oh really all these massacres occurred there? So Columbine and Virginia Tech didn't have ARMED guards at the schools? you might want to do a little research before making claims like that... I'm gonna take a wild guess and you're one of the ones that suggest teachers should have guns at school, I truly hope not...

    I've never once been in favor of banning guns (and neither is anyone else thats even talked about any laws) and I own a gun, but there SHOULD be regulations on certain things (like not owning a freaking machine gun, not being able to buy a damn silencer or 30 round clip, and the massively retarded gun show law). People like you are the ones that scream about the constitution and taking away our "freedoms" (yes because not being able to buy a gun without a background check is taking away a freedom, good lord) yet will STAUNCHLY ignore the constitution when comes to things like "all are created equal", separation of church and state, abortion, etc.
    You're talking to a Libertarian here, Buckwheat. While I personally disagree with abortion, that is between you and G-D. Two homosexuals want to get married, find a minister that will do it and get hitched, just keep the damn government out of it. War on drugs, totally against constitutional boundaries. GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES! War on terror you say? We're corporate storm troopers plain and simple.

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    Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., in the wake of the Newtown, Conn., shootings, said: "The British are not coming. ... We don't need all these guns to kill people." Lewis' vision, shared by many, represents a gross ignorance of why the framers of the Constitution gave us the Second Amendment. How about a few quotes from the period and you decide whether our Founding Fathers harbored a fear of foreign tyrants.Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed," adding later, "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government." By the way, Hamilton is referring to what institution when he says "the representatives of the people"?
    James Madison: "(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
    Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
    George Mason, author of the Virginia Bill of Rights, which inspired our Constitution's Bill of Rights, said, "To disarm the people – that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/williams-...lliams151.html

    Rep. John Lewis and like-minded people might dismiss these thoughts by saying the founders were racist anyway. Here's a more recent quote from a card-carrying liberal, the late Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey: "Certainly, one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms. ... The right of the citizen to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible." I have many other Second Amendment references athttp://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/quotes.html.
    Last edited by XXL TideFan; 01-02-2013 at 06:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdman37 View Post
    So you're answer is forget guns, we dont need to worry about that... lets censor music, movies, and video games. My god say that out loud and tell me you dont think its INSANE.
    Well, lets take your point of view and your solution to one problem and apply it to other problems and lets pass laws to ban alcohol, knives, guns,four wheelers, motorcycles, and while we are at it, let's completely ban cars as well?

    9855 people are killed by drunk drivers every year, that is almost the same number that are killed by guns? Alcohol doesn't kill people, people who drink alcohol ill responsibly and then try to drive kill people!

    So should we round up all the beer wine and liquor as well? Of course not, just like guns the vast majority enjoy a drink and use alcohol responsible. The same is true with guns. And lets not forget about pot related deaths. Oh that's right, pot is already illegal, LOL! ( A good example of why trying to ban assault weapons is a complete waste of time)

    25% of all violent crimes are drug related!

    http://www.madd.org/statistics/

    Automobiles are responsible for 40,000 deaths per year that is over 4 times as many people as are being killed by guns.
    So should we round up all the cars or just try to get bad driver off the streets?

    It is not the instrument of destruction that kills. It is people killing each other with the instrument of their choosing!

    18,300 people are killed in fires every year, should we banned all matches and lighters in America!

    There are over 3,104,095 people are killed or seriously injured by stabbing with knives every year!

    Well, I guess you should go ahead and confiscate everyone's pocket knives and steak knifes as well!

    Why don't we try addressing the root of the problem and not the outcome and start trying to help the insane and severely punishing the others for committing the crimes and stop blaming objects they use to hurt, maim and kill each other with!

    Start by banning violence on the screen, games and on television to anyone under 25, that would be a damn good start!

    It all comes down to personal responsibility, do you want to stop the true cause or the instrument that humanity uses to achieve the outcome knowing that you can never gather up all the guns from the nuts and bad guys, only the law abiding citizens?

    Do you want to stop drunk drivers, bad drivers, media and Hollywood brainwashed nuts wielding all kinds weapons (bombs, guns and knives) or do you want to do the impossible and attempt and take away anything and everything that these people use to kill each other with?

    If I wanted to kill someone and couldn't get a gun, I would use a bomb, if I could find a bomb I would use a knife, if I could find a knife, I would use a bat, if I could not use a bat I would use my car, if I couldn't use my car I would use poison, if I couldn't use poison I would just go find a big stick.

    Do you understand?

    Guns have only been on this earth for hundreds of years, but killing one another by the thousands and millions has been going on for thousands of years...




    Last edited by 0LDSCH00L; 01-03-2013 at 01:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychojoe View Post
    Joe, Liberals are always preaching tolerance, but true tolerance consists of treating people you like and people you don't like with the same consideration.

    Real Liberals are the most mean spirited human beings on the planet when it comes to people who may disagree with their POV!

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    Pretty good read on the whole "Assault Weapon" ban.


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/12/28/assault-weapon-is-just-a-pr-stunt-meant-to-fool-the-gullible/

    'Assault Weapon' Is Just A PR Stunt Meant To Fool The Gullible


    Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA) has announced that she will be introducing legislation to reenact the ban on so-called assault weapons that she authored in 1994. The evidence is in on the effect of her previous assault weapons ban: zero, zilch, nada, as the saying goes. The ban made no perceptible difference in the gun violence statistics when it went into effect, and no perceptible difference when it was allowed to expire 10 years later, in 2003.


    That is because the term “assault weapon” is just a PR stunt that fools the gullible and easily deluded. It is defined in legislation by cosmetic features that frighten white bread suburbanites, but do not involve any functionality of any gun. We tried it, conservatives said it wouldn't work, and it didn't work. Yet, it is the liberal answer to the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in Newtown, Conn.


    Why do the hard work of actually making a difference, when with no work at all you can perform a meaningless and irrelevant gesture that won’t make any difference? A Connecticut state law already banned assault weapons. The difference that made in stopping the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary: zero, zilch, nada, as the saying goes.


    The sharpest analyst in America, and probably the whole world, on the issue of guns and crime is economist John Lott, the author of the classic book, More Guns, Less Crime. Early in his career, Lott served as an economist for the U.S. Sentencing Commission, which adopted uniform, mandatory, criminal sentencing guidelines for the federal courts. That led to his subsequent career as the world’s foremost expert on statistics relating to violent crime and guns.


    Now in its Third Edition, Lott’s book is neither an opinion piece nor a lawyer’s brief. What it does is present highly sophisticated regression analysis of copious data relating to violent crime and guns city by city, county by county, and state by state, for several recent decades. Lott’s regression equations,


    “account for not only all the law enforcement variables (arrest, execution, and imprisonment rates), income and poverty measures, (poverty and unemployment rates, per capita real income, as well as income maintenance, retirement and unemployment payments), the thirty-six measures of demographic changes, and the national average changes in crime rates from year-to-year and average differences across states …. In addition, the [regressions] account for the difference in various concealed handgun laws and other types of gun control laws.”


    In short, this is the most sophisticated and comprehensive presentation of the data relating to violent crime and guns in the world.


    This and similar work relating to other countries worldwide shows that where the local population owns more guns, there is less crime. That it is because criminals avoid victims who are or might be armed, and prefer to prey on the defenseless and unarmed, such as in “gun-free” zones. And because the presence of guns that can be used in self defense stops the commission of the more violent crimes, such as murder.


    This unparalleled scholarship has swept the states with newly enacted “concealed carry” laws. These laws require local authorities to issue permits to carry concealed handguns to those who meet the specified qualifications, known as “shall issue” laws. Alternative state laws authorize local authorities with the discretion to issue such concealed carry permits, known as “may issue’ laws. In the early 1980s, just 8 states had any such right to carry laws. Today, 39 states have shall issue laws and 9 more have may issue laws. That leaves just two states, Illinois and Wisconsin, that completely ban citizens from carrying concealed handguns, and the Seventh Circuit just ruled the Illinois ban to be unconstitutional under the Second Amendment.


    As a result, by 2007 about 5 million Americans held permits to carry concealed handguns. Lott’ s Third Edition published in 2010 includes regressions that show these concealed carry laws result in:


    “large drops in overall violent crime, murder, rape, and aggravated assault that begin right after the right to carry laws have gone into effect. In all those crime categories, the crime rates consistently stay much lower than they were before the law. The murder rate for these right to carry states fell consistently every year relative to non-right-to-carry states.”


    Lott summarizes,


    “All the results indicate that violent crime falls after right-to-carry laws are passed …. There is a large, statistically significant drop in murder rates across all specifications. The before-and-after average comparison implies that right-to-carry laws reduce murder by roughly 20 percent. In all cases, right-to-carry laws cause the trends in murder, rape, and robbery rates to fall.”


    As David Kopel explained in the Wall Street Journal on December 17, armed permit holders often serve as the first line of defense against mass murderers:


    “The media rarely mentions the mass murders that were thwarted by armed citizens at the Shoney Restaurant in Anniston, Ala (1991 ), the high school in Pearl, Miss. ( 1997), the middle school dance in Edinboro, Penn. ( 1998), and the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. (2007), among others. At the Clackamas Mall in Oregon last week, an active shooter murdered two people and then saw that a shopper, who had a handgun carry permit, had drawn a gun and was aiming at him. The murderer’s next shot was to kill himself.”


    Israel, which can’t afford the weak minded irrationality of American liberals, has learned from all this and its own experience to stop terrorist attacks in its schools by arming its teachers. That has worked spectacularly to shut down terrorist attacks in Isreali schools, without a single accident or misuse of guns.


    But CNN anchor Piers Morgan showed recently that he does not learn from experience when he unprofessionally attacked Gun Owners of America President Larry Pratt on the air as “an incredibly stupid man” because Pratt was aware of the above evidence, while Morgan was not. Morgan, who demonstrates on air every day why people have said that America and Britain are two nations separated by a common language, ignorantly insisted that America adopt the benighted gun control laws of his formerly great country of Britain.


    George Mason Law School Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm, author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience (Harvard, 2002), explained why Morgan’s position was so silly in Thursday’s Wall Street Journal. In March, 1996, Thomas Hamilton, known to suffer mental illness, shot and killed 16 young children and their teacher in a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane, wounding 10 other children and 3 more teachers before killing himself. That resulted in the Firearms Act of 1998, “which instituted a nearly complete ban on handguns. Owners of pistols were required to turn them in. The penalty for illegal possession of a pistol is up to 10 years in prison.”


    The results of that law, which would be unconstitutional in the U.S. no matter how many guests Piers Morgan calls stupid on his show, were:


    “Within a decade of the handgun ban and the confiscation of handguns from registered owners, crime with handguns had doubled according to British government crime reports. Gun crime, not a serious problem in the past, now is. Armed street gangs have some British police carrying guns for the first time.”


    Lott adds, “The evidence should make gun control advocates pause, as all the gun bans that I have studied show that murder rates increase after the ban is enacted.”


    The draconian British law nullifying self defense in that country did not end mass shootings there. In June 2010, “Derrick Bird, a taxi driver in Cumbria, shot his brother and a colleague then drove off through rural villages killing 12 people and injuring 11 more before killing himself.”


    Based on all the evidence and experience above, what would work to stop tragedies like Sandy Hook Elementary is to offer a bonus of $2,500 a year to all teachers who obtain a conceal and carry permit, which requires training in every state, and who bring their gun to school every day, where it would be available in case of emergency. That would deter even mentally ill people from even trying mass murders at schools.


    Lott explains that mass murderers choose so-called gun free zones such as schools or movie theaters or shopping malls where guns are prohibited because they know they can carry out their plan for mass murder there without being stopped. All gun free zone signs should be required to include a skull and crossbones with the admonition to the innocent “Enter at your own risk.”


    Lott adds that these mass murderers are consciously choosing to commit suicide in carrying out their crimes. But they don’t want to go out quietly. They want to go out with a big bang to draw national and even worldwide attention to their pain and their plight. This is all a reflection of their mental illness.


    Only the above policy of arming the teachers can stop such crazed madmen. The government does not even have the power to take away guns from dangerous criminals and insane mass murderers. We can’t even stop drugs and illegal aliens from crossing the border, and drugs and illegal guns even show up in prisons. Guns will always be available to those who want to obtain them. Legally mandated helplessness by the victims and those who could protect them only results in maximum vulnerability, as at Sandy Hook Elementary.


    Moreover, Kopel also reports in Monday’s Journal, “A 2011 paper by Steven P. Segal at the University of California, Berkeley, Civil Commitment Law, Mental Health Services, and U.S. Homicide Rates, ‘found that a third of the state-to-state variation in homicide rates was attributable to the strength or weakness of involuntary civil commitment laws.” Wednesday’s Journal notes that a Hartford, Connecticut Judge Robert K. Killian, Jr. has been arguing for Connecticut to adopt stronger civil commitment laws, based on his own experience with repeat offenders. But the ACLU


    was focused on protecting Adam Lanza’s civil liberties to mow down kindergarten students at Sandy Hook Elementary, so the Connecticut legislature never acted.


    The same paper editorializes that a better solution would be mandatory outpatient treatment laws for the mentally ill who are a danger to others without taking their medication, which has “shown results in limiting violence among the mentally ill.”


    These policies would constitute a complete and effective program to prevent the next Sandy Hook Elementary atrocity. But they are based on evidence and reason, not mindless emotion, so don’t expect any “liberal” support.


    Correction: 2011 Wisconsin Act 35 authorized eligible residents, effective November 1, 2011, to be licensed to carry a concealed weapon such as a handgun in Wisconsin.

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